Server Make Master Builder Great Again.

[erin]

Master builder has been incredibly neglected since this server's inception back in August, and the current MB benefits are as follows:

A different coloured name in-game (not on the discord, nor forums, and if you're an admin you don't see this benefit)
Access to a mb world, which is, at the moment, rather desolate. There are the starts of some pretty beautiful looking buildings at the moment though.
Now this is pretty sorry state, even if you're of the belief that master builder should be a title - because as it stands, it's not even that.



Given the state of the server and it's player base, master builder is one of the few genuine incentives that players here have to play the game here, as opposed to playing elsewhere and talking in the discord server chat. And I am calling it one of the few incentives despite its few benefits - because I am genuinely scraping the bottom of the barrel here. Since it was pushed back to being merely a title, you don't get any extra building permissions or more freedoms than any other player. You're actually better off applying for admin to get unrestricted worldedit access among other actual building benefits that I'm forgetting. It's also easier to get admin - be active and relatively nice on the server and you'll likely get enough vouches. Master builder applications have genuinely been reviewed with critique over the years and require actual building skill.



And given these lack of benefits, it makes the application format even more confusing. Discord account is asked for.. despite the fact that there is no discord role for master builders, or anything that might separate them from the other uses of the discord. It also asks how often they're able to be a master builder.. to do.. what? No executive is taking any responsibility over the team to the point of the one application being ignored, when in the past they were used, albeit with limited success, to help with building projects that the server had.

Think of the hubworld on the last server, how it was built by our MBs. The plethora of events maps they worked on, even when there ended up being no benefit to their work, or their position.

This game is a creative medium and we've got so many people on this server who are incredibly talented at it going to waste because we simply are making no effort to reward that. People who haven't joined this server yet too, especially when we can offer one of the best creative server building experiences out there.

I really don't want us getting stuck in the past, especially when the server that once was in the past is now dead. And none of us want that to happen again. We need to move forward, realise we're a creative server and give some benefits to people who want to come here and build. It's a joke that they're better off applying for admin to do the same thing.

 

[fres]

Vouch. I think at the very least a Discord role for master builders is *really* necessary. Nothing makes getting MB appealing at the moment. Master builders need more recognition.

 

[shdwo]

For context, this is a conversation about the master builder title that happened an hour or two prior to this thread

This is one of the more common issues with this server as it stands, certain executives are more focused on getting TF back to what it "used to be" rather than moving forward and making it an enjoyable experience for the people who are already here. Stating that MB is a "threat against this server's foundation" is absurd and it shows just how out of touch some higher ups are with the community.




This says enough really...

vouch

 

[Luke]

i'm gonna go ahead and do something here.

here we have a mockup of what i think video's response is going to be based on what he said on the Discord. if i post this following his actual comment then this was prepared beforehand. please keep in mind this isn't just his opinion but i feel it's more effective if i put it from an executive

i vouch personally solely because it means the server has something to do on. rn there is quite literally nothing but wander around aimlessly and build. eventually people stop building cuz there's no end goal.

i posted this fake screenshot because i think this rationale is stupid and just cuz it was on the old TF doesn't mean it worked, nor will it work now. having "total freedom" is a concept that died before i even joined, keep in mind i've been here for 6 years now.

adapt and build up from the ground, don't cling to nostalgic shit just cuz it was nostalgic, old doesn't always mean better.

should video do this anyway i'm gonna make a few suggestions on how to be like the old tf, starting with reincluding ip addresses in bans, ensuring people get banned by the executives for a "forced vacation", and also include a mandatory "drama" rule that means people have to argue and be absolutely toxic otherwise the entire place gets shut down.

 

[khione]

vouch

 

[gamingto12]

vouch

 

[Alco_Rs11]

I Vouch. MB definitely needs more recognition. A discord title, for example is an easy extra cosmetic that shows who the server's best builders are. They also can also be trusted with enhanced worldedit as skilled builders aren't the demographic that is likely to abuse it. This can give an incentive to play, learn to build good and you get rewarded with more plugin access to further incentivize you to play here.

The usefulness of MBs shouldn't be ignored either. MBs can also be a very useful asset to the server, such as being mobilized to make special spawns for major holidays, events, etc
and other nice things for the server as well, as they have done so in the past. We really shouldn't alienate an entire player demographic especially since we are a creative server and potentially skilled builders will go elsewhere as they might see TF as a "dead end" with no incentives to grow or be rewarded for actually having skill at building.

 

[redeastwood]

> master builder goes against the values of tf
> is literally one of the only ranks that has been around since 2013

vouch

 

[Telesphoreo]

I vouch. I didn't realize the MB role was quite literally a title with barely any incentives. Unfortunately there are just blind spots sometimes and I don't see everything immediately wrong. I vouch for more benefits for masterbuilders such as unrestricted WE (and, potentially, nerfing some of the more harmful brushes for OPs) and also a Discord role and also a role on the forums.

 

[videogamesm12]

As expected from the remarks in this thread, I object to the concept of giving them more privileges. Here's why:

• Giving masterbuilders more privileges over regular players will not encourage them to build more.
  I don't see the logic in the idea that making certain features exclusive to masterbuilders would encourage players to build more. Some people just can't build well no matter how hard they try, so preventing them from using certain featuresets because they simply aren't as good as other people at building might actually achieve the opposite effect by discouraging them from building. We should be striving to give people higher limits, not locking it behind a title that you need to spend a large amount of effort to accomplish.
  
  
• Under Ryan's administration, we tried giving masterbuilders massive amounts of freedom to encourage them to build more. It didn't.
  Those who were masterbuilders at the time remember the shitshow that was the masterbuilder system back then. Ryan gave masterbuilders an entire dedicated server to collaborate on projects and build shit there. While I'm sure that many great masterbuilder projects did happen there, near the end we couldn't rely on the masterbuilder team to build things for us since they were mostly inactive. I just don't think that giving them exclusive privileges will encourage them to build on the server.

I do vouch to the idea of giving them more recognition across the server's platforms and correcting other inconsistencies related to them.

 

[Telesphoreo]

As expected from the remarks in this thread, I object to the concept of giving them more privileges. Here's why:

• Giving masterbuilders more privileges over regular players will not encourage them to build more.
  I don't see the logic in the idea that making certain features exclusive to masterbuilders would encourage players to build more. Some people just can't build well no matter how hard they try, so preventing them from using certain featuresets because they simply aren't as good as other people at building might actually achieve the opposite effect by discouraging them from building. We should be striving to give people higher limits, not locking it behind a title that you need to spend a large amount of effort to accomplish.
  
  
• Under Ryan's administration, we tried giving masterbuilders massive amounts of freedom to encourage them to build more. It didn't.
  Those who were masterbuilders at the time remember the shitshow that was the masterbuilder system back then. Ryan gave masterbuilders an entire dedicated server to collaborate on projects and build shit there. While I'm sure that many great masterbuilder projects did happen there, near the end we couldn't rely on the masterbuilder team to build things for us since they were mostly inactive. I just don't think that giving them exclusive privileges will encourage them to build on the server.

I do vouch to the idea of giving them more recognition across the server's platforms and correcting other inconsistencies related to them.

What do you suggest to incentivize people to build on the server again, if not more privileges for them and more resources? Instead of saying how everything won't work, could you actually give a suggestion for what you do think would incentivize them?

 

[videogamesm12]

could you actually give a suggestion for what you do think would incentivize them?

Just some general ideas:

• As a long term goal we should look into adding more building-oriented plugins to the server, but grant permissions equally for everyone so that anyone can use them
• In terms of development, I suggest we prioritize finishing the per-player world system that Taah was cooking so that everyone can have their own private areas that can't be interfered with
• We should investigate ways to increase existing limits on plugins without compromising server stability
• As a community we should actively reduce the overall drama that actively pushes players away from the server

 

[Taah]

I vouch to the unlimited access to WorldEdit for MasterBuilders. If a Discord role were given, I will vouch only if it changes their color and not their primary display role. For the per player worlde mentioned above by Video, that's indefinitely stopped until we fix the issues with ASPaper and Scissors (fuck scissors!!!!)

 

[Telesphoreo]

We had ScissorsASWM but when porting that to 1.20.4, it was riddled with bugs. I decided to suspend development on that since no one was using that, including us

 

[Feueristic]

Tossing two cents as one of the more competent builders that somehow stuck around through two TF deletions.

Giving masterbuilders more privileges over regular players will not encourage them to build more.

I'm afraid I'm going to have to agree with Video. Let's not kid ourselves here: Nobody plays TF just for Minecraft. Maybe you came here because you like the perms, but you're still here for a reason outside of perms. If perms aren't the problem, perms isn't going to fix the problem. Maybe builders more up-to-date and talented than me would disagree, but I think for the vast majority of the target audience of TF that having almost all FAWE/VoxelSniper commands is more than enough to make competent, above-mediocre grade builds (the bar is low on TF). The only real limiting factor I have found is with bounded radii on some commands but they are plenty reasonable and can be mitigated with simple effort.

While I see a lot of people talk about "additional perms" or "unlocked WorldEdit" I see zero concrete example. I would love to see the real extent to the current limits because I fear that nobody here actually understands what they are right now.

We really shouldn't alienate an entire player demographic especially since we are a creative server and potentially skilled builders will go elsewhere as they might see TF as a "dead end" with no incentives to grow or be rewarded for actually having skill at building.

This is one of the sentiments that I want to touch on as well. Builder incentive is kind of a chicken-and-egg problem. One of the more core things that I enjoy while building is having buddies that encourage you, give criticism and to enjoy building together - but you can't really get people without already having people. While these players do pop in one at a time, the vast majority is focused on item creation, playing around with other plugins, or just exploiting game limits. If TF cannot attract an initial momentum of a group of friendly builders, it'll be extremely difficult to see people worth keeping being kept.


That said, to refocus on the MB rank specifically, with what I've said above in mind, maybe what we really need is some more community oriented tools. Building events, server-wide projects, things that bring people together to start a build. These are not easy things to design compared to just increasing some numbers in a text file, but they are what we need. For the perks discussed here previously, having a MB Discord channel can be nice to dedicate discussion related to building and server projects, and having an MB dedicated world can be nice to show players what they can achieve with a bit of patience to learn; But just having the skeleton of the perk isn't going to cut it when there is no substance behind it.


However many perms you've got, one wooden axe can only get you so far.

 

[Telesphoreo]

I have added a role on the forums and Discord aside from just being an in game role. That seems like the most obvious first thing, but we can continue to discuss the specific permissions and everything else